As I mentioned in the meeting (or at least tried to if I didn't get interrupted), was to say that there will be people who will not like a change. I also tried to point out that it has been a reward system for those that do raid time after time, just to help and for no other reason. I think Janisk brought up a good example of this. There are others with similar stories I am sure. SO do we take this into consideration? I do hope so.

So please let us not turn this into an issue and we must think about all the implications it will have on everyone, not just on our own situations. This is a difficult situation for me, I have to stay neutral, be open minded and be a voice for everyone. Most important of all, make sure those voices are heard too (this includes the guild and the officers).

I will be closing this thread on Tuesday after the meeting, and as far as I am concerned I do not want to hear about DKP again for a long long time. Please =)

We have already spent a couple of hours debating this, and most of the officers attended, does that mean that if some cannot / will not attend on monday any decision can be over turned by ppl who were not there, or were there but didn't speak up..?

As I have stated before, i believe that the current system is not what we intended DKP to be, and by giving EVERYONE a fairer chance in a new instance we will be seen to be helping all guildies enjoy the game more.

If we cannot all agree ( which we DID do last monday, otherwise Itty would not have let it go through ), lets vote on it, but please stick to it this time.. ( I have already signed up for a Guild continuation run, but presume that my char can be temporarily promoted for this ).

I myself have very little DKP because I raid too infrequently. But I do feel that we all decided on a system back when we started in January and we should leave it alone. I think maybe the only change that could possibly be made is that we cap it, and also maybe reset the DKP when we start new content (this can be discussed).

From the response we are getting here it is mixed feelings. It is also a debate that can go on and on…However I have no desire to let this become an ongoing issue. So I have proposed a meeting for the officers on Monday night to put forth the suggestions that I have mentioned above.

Itty

So all those hours I spent healing in Nax for items I don't want or need, just to help the Guild gear up is wasted (but hey I got the DKP) thats' worth nothing..the crap I gave to the wife and kids…worth nothing…the times I left work early to help…worth nothing…the excuses I made to stay in front of the computer…worth nothing…you have no idea what I have done in the past to ensure I am available…worth nothing….

DKP set to 0………..but its fair……is it?

I start at 0………………….

Irritated Niffy…..you bet!!

Janisk

25 runs I had to do in Shadowlab before Breastplate of Many graces dropped

I wasn't involved in these runs, I believe those that were are now 'licking windows', i do however remember fondly the many runs to Sethekk Halls and other places to get gear for Priestine and other characters.

/Daydreams has nightmares remembering

Also, why I like roll is because it gives me a reason to come back if I don't get the item first, seccond or third time it drop. If I get everything I want to too fast, there is no much point in going to this or that particular dungeon again besides the opportunity to hang out with nice people. But raids can sometimes be so serious so the hanging out bit is reduced to very little interaction in some cases.

So, all gear collected and little room for interacting
on = boring event, for me that is.

I still look back with joy on the 25 runs I had to do in Shadowlab before Breastplate of Many graces dropped. That is still the best item I have ever had and I have never screamed so much of yoy over an item before or after that drop. I still have it in my bank! Purples who I recieve nowdays is more of a "o well, I guess that was nice to have" rather than "omg, I actually FINALLY got it" - as I can buy it. No mystery to it. No challenge. Just collect your dkp and when it drops it is yours. Boooring! But, that is me and what I find fun :)

For example, if we go to Ulduar 25 as we are at the moment and we down the first 3 boss we get 3 bits of loot from each, (maybe 4, but the number is irrelevant) so that's 9 or 12 bits of loot from the evening. If only one item is for hunters and we have 3 hunters in the group, I roll and lose.
Next week we go, the same happens and I lose again. Maybe even the hunter from last week wins again. So this could go on for weeks before I eventually win something.

Same same but different?!

The only difference I can see is that in a roll system where u have to stop rolling on items once u have one and therefore have to roll wise, instead of a dkp system where you gather dkp points which u have to spend wise, is that the roll system is easier to monitor and in a way fairer as it gives everyone who participates in A PARTICLULAR RAID, chance to get something out of this effort lootwise.

Also, even if new ppl have gotten items as they didnt have minus dkp as others who had been there before, or in a roll system sometimes would get an item before someone who frequent has been there - the raid as a whole benefits. One benefit more from all members of a raid being decent geared than having two or three top geared members.

Again, same same but different no matter if u take an easy monitored system as the roll or a complex one as the dkp.

Nope, Inflation will still occur it just takes longer to happen.

If it takes so long to happen that we're resetting the DKP bank in preparation for the 3.2 instance, then that works out well. :)

New raiders will still be at the same disadvantage at the start as there could be potentially 24 other people in the raid with more DKP then them.

New raiders are *always* at a disadvantage when they enter a DKP guild, though. No one system is going to fix that. It's a fact of life.

Rule could be: If u win one item, you can not roll again in the same raid, unless no one else rolls.

Yep sometimes a newbie can win an item someone has been after for long - but, that has happened in our DKP-system as well.

But, those who goes often to a raid will buy many more lottery tickets then one that goes once in awhile.

Chance is there for everyone, only some in theory have bigger chance.

It would bring magic back to looting, rather than just knowing who will buy that item.

A fixed price DKP system is not without it's flaws no dkp system is. It is however simple to use and maintain and offers the fairest and inflation free system realisticaly avaliable to a guild of our size.

An alternative system is a relational DKP system which allows many factors to affect the rate of which people gain and lose dkp e.g decay of their points each week by a value, say 2% until they hit 0. A dkp cap which when reached their points are reduced by a percentage. Also a bidding system where players can bid 1x 2x 3x the DKP cost of an item. Meaning a player with large amount of dkp can afford to bid x3 cost of an item, almost guarenteeing them the item but taking a huge dkp hit to do so.

These dkps systems however are difficult to manage, maintain and are only worth the effort in a guild 3 or 4 times the size of ours.

In my honest opinion it is not the dkp system that has caused this problem we're faced with, it is the amount of people who have done 25 Naxx/ulduar outside of the guild, gotten the gear dkp free, come to raids as normal; no longer need and gear so their dkp just sits around doing nothing.

Alternatively elements of a relational dkps system could be applied here to manage to maximum amount of dkp people can attain, such as a decay system previously mentioned. Ultimetly the player would reach a limit on how much dkp they could keep up even if the player raided everyday, as the percentage decyaed would be greater than the amount earned.

I'm trying to offer feedback to the people who make the decisions, as opposed to saying they wont work without giving any solutions or ideas on how to improve them.

An interesting subject and I can see it will get loads of debate, rightly so.

I personally don't have a problem with the current system, but I can understand the concerns raised. We want folks to able to have a shot at upgearing and faced with dkp scores of 100+ it can seem like you will never get there. My only concern is that we get rid of 1 loot system for another which we will have to change in 6 months, and then start alienating those who have put in effort to get on raids.

I don't mind which way we go and I'll make the most of any system we adopt. We have a really great social/raiding ethos which beats any end boss raiding guilds in my opinion. However, can we please refrain from mentioning Stelli's undies in raid I had nightmares all night.

Cheers
Gyg:)

Yes people will accumulate dkp but there is no dkp from outside sources such as bonuses for first boss kills or boss attempts, therefore nulifying inflation. For people to earn dkp someone has to spend it, if no one buys the item no one will get and dkp. Unless of course there is going to be a nuked value which is generaly half of normal dkp value for items from past experience. Instead of gettign 1dkp from an item bought they will get 0.5 dkp if it is nuked.

Another positive is people are going to take much longer to get the dkp they spent, back. This means thinking twice about whether to bid on an item will happen.

This system works in cycles, "wave 1" will have enough dkp to dominate the looting for a week or two, however "wave 2" are earning their own dkp and soon they will dominate the looting for a time.

If it get's to a stage where loot from a specific instance is no longer required and people are gaining lots of dkp through the nuked value (assuming there is one), then that instance should be declared as DKP free, as the majority of people don't need loot from there and are using it to accumulate their DKP. This also gives people who are new to the guild and the system to gear up, get raiding, and get earning their own dkp from dkp giving instances. A real time example of this is now for us is Naxxramas and Ulduar.

The reason for this change is that over is that in the last few months we have noticed that many raiders accumulate a lot of DKP and this causes inflation which in turn unbalances the system. Because we are trying to be as fair as possible to all those that raid including those with low DKP, we want to make sure that the system of DKP works for us.

We did think about capping the DKP at 100, but this would not work for those that give a lot of their time to the raids helping out when either people don't turn up or in leading. Hence the next best option was to use a different DKP.

This wont mean much for those that are not raiding yet but please take the time to read up on it so you understand what is going on.

Here are some Links to look at:

wowwiki - Zero sum

What is DKP?

More on Zero sum

PS: Please note the DKP site is down at the moment.

Thanks Itty